The Zero Sum Game that isn’t. On how antis and haters will make sure everyone loses out.

The Zero Sum Game that isn’t:

On how antis and haters will make sure everyone loses out.

By: Starfield of TheJYJFiles

These are dark, dark times in the TVXQ/JYJ fandom. The fact that you cannot type the four letter word TVXQ and be certain people know who you are referring to, and that your very definition of these four letters will identify yourself as either a friend or foe to the more zealous fans of either “camps”, should give you an idea just how real the fandom division has become.

There are other obvious signs of a waging civil war within our fandom. Public forums, popular blogs and even the very people who administer or translate for these high-traffic sites are being labeled and attacked for “only supporting one side”. Ironically, the more neutral they try to be, the lesser they are trusted by the extremists (or should I say “purists”) of either camp.

As a response to the rapid deterioration of fandom atmosphere, the popular slogan in this fandom has been changed from the cheerful “Always keep the faith, true cassies support all five!” to the much more practical “Let’s move on, support who you want to support and leave the other side alone!” Maybe, this slogan will soon be further modified to a pleading “Please, just, no bashing, and, no hating on my oppa!”

The current status of the international fandom may already be considered pretty bad by many, but in terms of the sheer number of haters and the level of hate displayed, the i-fandom actually is on a whole a much brighter and happier place than the Japanese, Chinese and Korean fandoms.

(I need to clarify though, that I don’t know the Korean language, therefore my understanding of the going-ons of the Korean fandom depends on translated information from various sources.)

What a severe wrong must a celebrity has personally done to a “fan”, for the fan to call him the foulest names imaginable, to openly wish that the celebrity’s career will crash and burn, to wish he’ll simply “disappear” or literally go to hell? Seriously, why so much hate?

So it all started with “I heard from a little bird”

I have been following both the Japanese and the Chinese fandoms closely since way before the lawsuit, the English fandom more closely since last year, and I puzzled together my limited knowledge of the Korean fandom by reading accounts in the above three languages.

From my observations, the antis almost all originated from Korea, and were spread into the other three regions via bilingual netizens who translated filtered news, articles and rumors on high-traffic message boards known to be hotbeds for celebrity gossips. Due to the lack of centralized source of information in the form of mega-sized fansites such as DNBN in Korea, Baidu TVXQ Bar in China and the various well-known English sites in the i-fandom; (mis)information from self-proclaimed “insider” K-cassies spread like a wildfire in Japan with many fans believing in their every word. This culminated in the rise of a number of BNF antis to something akin to “cult leader status”. The biggest anti sites in Japan boast daily visitor counts in the range of low five digits, and their more “juicy” entries often received thousands or more comments (all in agreement with the OP, for disapproving comments are deleted while the dissident commenters are ganged up on).

In China, as the fansite with the largest following (more than 80,000 registered members) stands firm on its stance to support all five members (although it gets criticism from both sides for leaning toward the other side more), antis are not allowed the “luxury” to spread vicious rumors on the this mega-sized information hub (their ID will be banned, and the site only permits member registration on very few days in a year), which along with its sister “bars”, are the only places many fans visit. However, there is this one notorious forum that has got to be one of the world’s busiest rumor mill catering to minimally censored discussions on anything about any celebrity, where you often find the TVXQ related threads growing to hundreds of pages long in a span of a day or two. Then there’s also Chinese’s version of twitter–weibo–and numerous other chat rooms and/or instant messengers where the true thoughts and sentiments of the BNFs are exchanged- and sometimes screen capped and be used as fodders for the next episode of fandom drama.

The rumors might have crept into the Japanese cyber fandom in as early as mid-2009, but they only really began to gain momentum after it was announced that Tohoshinki’s activities will be put on an indefinite halt. As the days went by and it became more and more obvious that the group would not reunite anytime soon (if ever), the urge to name the “culprit” for THSK’s breakup was becoming stronger. What started off as passive rumor sites (I think they identify themselves as truth-seeking informational sites though…) began to gain attention very rapidly- as they were being promoted through words of mouth and having their links posted everywhere. Eventually, they became the largest bases for antis of certain members who were blamed by the original rumor site as the real culprits for the TVXQ breakup.

With the rise in numbers of active antis, popular blogs that support the “guilty” members or all five members (these blogs are called the “花畑 (hanabata, meaning flower fields)” by haters, as in they turn a blind eye to the “truths” and continue to support those members who betrayed, broke up the group and otherwise “victimized” the other members, as if nothing is wrong) were getting hostile comments in bulk, and on a daily basis. As a result, many of these blogs or sites were shut down, some have disabled the comment function and some have locked up their sites allowing only for member access.

Witnessing all these, I was dumbfounded. Putting aside the matter of whether or not the haters are justified in their anger, isn’t it easy to simply stop buying any product of the members one no longer supports, and move on? Isn’t it better to focus one’s time on supporting the members one does like and believe in? And if anger needs to be vented, shouldn’t venting with like-minded people in private or on one’s personal blog be enough?

The Zero Sum Game- A’s survival and success will only come at the expense of B’s defeat and demise, and vice versa

While I do not consider it very likely that antis can be brought back to the light side with reason (there are ways to counter the antis, most effectively by defusing misinformation with facts, and this is being done by an increasing number of popular bloggers), I wonder if I could offer my humble opinion on how not to start thinking like a hater/anti.

I am seeing this line of thought beginning to surface more frequently in the i-fandom:

“I want to know the TRUTH, about why the lawsuit was really filed, about why not all members filed the lawsuit.”

“If you know enough about the lawsuit (like the OP implies him/herself does), then you will see how it’s impossible to support both sides.”

Because there has to be one true culprit for TVXQ’s breakup.

Because somehow, in order to justify the side a fan supports, the other side needs to be vilified.

If Homin were right to have stayed at SM, then JYJ had to be wrong to have left.

If JYJ are courageous, freedom-loving pioneers who fight against an evil giant for their own rights; then Homin have to be cowardly, dependent followers who stand behind said evil giant.

If  Homin are loyal, modest people with integrity, who are grateful to a family-like organization that has made their success possible; then JYJ have to be disloyal, greedy traitors who are morally corrupt, and have betrayed people who were as close as family.

The righteousness of JYJ and that of Homin (and sometimes by extension SM) are therefore mutually exclusive. And the competition for a better public opinion becomes even more brutal, when fans began to believe that only one side was telling the truth, which would leave the other side the least coveted position as a “liar”.

But it’s wrong on so many levels to think that it’s impossible for two good persons to have made opposite choices

Logically, I just can’t see why Jaejoong, Yoochun, Junsu, Yunho, and Changmin can’t ALL be decent human beings, who have made the best possible decisions according to their respective value and belief systems.

Neither the choice to leave nor the choice to stay at SM is going to make them look like angels to all the fans, especially when they didn’t all make the same choice. And they must have foreseen this, having the chaotic drama and fanwar ensuing H.O.T’s breakup as a precedent.

Of course, there are more to just the choice to leave or stay itself- there are the lawsuit, what each member has said about the contract, about SM and its treatment of its artists. While these were said with a purpose to justify their own positions, it’s inevitable that their self-justifications would be viewed as points to invalidate the opposite position. As previously described, if one choice is right, then the opposite choice “has to be wrong”.

The most divisive ‘events’ that took place in the past 17 months or so, are the lawsuit and the Homin’s display of allegiance to SM. I compare Chunjaesu filing the lawsuit to Homin having to publicly side with SM- it’s not exactly an apple-to-apple comparison, but IMHO they have one important common element- they are both the inevitable cost (and very high cost at that) of their respective decision they have made to leave or stay at SM.

For Chunjaesu, who were determined to leave SM, the only viable way to do it was by filing a lawsuit to void their contract, because the cost to break away as stipulated in the contract was estimated by media experts at a whopping $400 million USD (as discussed in Jimmie’s article dated 11/14/11), hardly an amount they could possibly come up with.

Likewise for Homin, who were determined to stay at SM, it is only natural that in order to defend its public image, SM will require Homin to either directly criticize Chunjaesu, or give their silent consent for SM to criticize Chunjaesu using their names.

On Chunjaesu’s part, suing the very management company that trained them, promoted them and helped made them the stars they are today, made them look like ungrateful, greedy traitors especially in a “Confucian society” like Korea. Also, by claiming the contract as very unfair they inevitably made those artists who are alright with a similar contract, look bad (or at least suspicious) in the eyes of their supporters.

On Homin’s part, staying at a management company with such horrible reputations (“slave contracts” and cockblocking the “defectors”), made them look like weak, fearful children especially in the eyes of some of their hometown fans who had never trusted SM. Also, by sticking with a contract Chunjaesu called very unfair, they inevitably made the trio look bad (or at least fishy) in the eyes of their supporters.

I highly doubt either side thought they would have it easy, the decisions, I think, were made despite of the hardships they each anticipated they would have to endure.

Many fans find themselves supporting one choice but not the other- and I think this is only natural. However, in addition to reminding ourselves that they are 100% entitled to decide how they want to live their lives (whether you like/agree with their way or not), I think it might help to gain perspective by considering certain ‘what-if?’ scenarios.

A lot of times, we don’t judge on what have been said and done, but who have said and done it.

I am a Jaejoong fan, and I fully support Chunjaesu’s decision to file a lawsuit against SM. I certainly wish they could have somehow gotten out of SM without subjecting themselves and their fans to so much sadness, drama and worries; but we are not in that perfect world, and I do believe this lawsuit will end up helping to make the K-pop music industry a better place for the artists and future artist-want-to-be’s, whether or not making other artists’ lives better was part of their motivations behind the lawsuit.

BUT, what if, what if Jaejoong had instead made the decision to stay at SM? Would that have changed my view on the lawsuit, or my view on Jaejoong?

I’ve thought about it really hard, and have come to the conclusion that had he made the opposite decision, I would still have believed that his motivations were good, and that his reasons made sense, even though I would still have supported the lawsuit as a choice more.

When you have faith in someone- and I don’t call it a blind faith unless you are always going against your rational thinking while defending this person – it’s natural and easy for you to believe that whatever conscious decision he makes, he has a genuine motive and doesn’t mean to hurt anyone, even when he knows it’s inevitable that people will be hurt by his decision.

There will only be a lose-lose outcome if antis are not stopped

Back to the battlefields… I mean the fandoms.

The greatest casualties for last year’s fanwars, are the casual fans and the new fans for TVXQ as a whole. Following the successful Tokyo Dome live in 09, their appearances on various high profile year-end shows like the Kohaku, and the immensely popular Best Selection album released in early 2010, a new flood of fans poured into the TVXQ fandom. They already knew about the lawsuit, but that was alright- fandom atmosphere was most supportive at that time, and they were so happy to have discovered this wonderful group with their wonderful fans. Their only regret was that they hadn’t discovered TVXQ earlier, but that was okay too- the old fans were most welcoming, telling them we would always keep the faith, always support each and every member.

Less than a few months later, everything changed. With the rise of the rumor sites, more and more fans began to look at the members differently, and eventually became antis, thinking they “have learned the ugly truth about these members”. Some of the popular fan sites have come out to openly denounce the members, some were attacked so much they closed down their sites, and some have disabled comments or locked up their sites allowing only limited access. To the horror of the new fans, they not only had suddenly lost places to interact lightheartedly with each other and the old fans, they were now being told that some of the boys fans described as angels were actually backstabbing demons.

The casual fans were having their massive exodus too. Casual fans were in it for the good music and fun, thank you very much. They didn’t care who the bad guy was, or if there was a bad guy at all, so all the in-fights were just plain inconveniences to them. And since a lot of the casual fans had migrated to the TVXQ fandom from some other fandom, it was relatively easy for them to migrate to another new fandom- especially with the abundance of other boybands to choose from. These other bands might not be Tohoshinki, but many of them are good looking, can sing well, dance well, and most importantly their fandoms are currently fun and harmonious. So with a new wallpaper on their blogs, with new entries that are filled with pictures of other boys, they said their farewell to a once-happy cyber family now being hijacked by its extremist members.

Thanks to the haters, the overall fandom shrank at a speed that would be unfathomable had the fandom atmosphere remained positive.

So have these antis at least achieved what they had set out to do- to take over the fandom (or what is left of it) with their beliefs, to bring down the other camp?

You might have heard about what were the “hell gate” incidents that took place in the Korean fandom awhile ago, I’ve heard that things have largely settled now. As for the Japanese fandom, things have started to backfire on the antis.

The “cult/ringleaders” have lately begun to notice that although they have successfully converted many fans to haters, they are increasingly being shunned by fans outside of their castle, including the more reasonable fans who have the same biases as they do. There are also fans who after months of pent-up anger, have exploded and realized they could not even stand to look at, let along supporting the members of whom these antis are fans.

What is even worse for the antis, is that the Korean fans have taken actions to counter all the rumors, lies, and misinformation they have been spreading in the last year or so. The tide change is rapid and rather amusing to watch. Although the sheer size of their “army” makes it quite unlikely that they will be greatly weakened anytime soon, the fact that they have started to ‘tone down’ their hateful rhetoric, and that the joyful “flower field” fansites are “coming back to business” one after another, I think are already causes for celebrations.

In the end, one can only boost support for her side so much by vilifying the other side. “Righteous anger” might act as a strong catalyst for awhile, but it’s love that will last- but can a hateful heart feel love? Especially when one’s entire case of justice and vindictiveness were built on lies, just remember, what goes around comes around.

~Please do not remove without proper credits~


44 thoughts on “The Zero Sum Game that isn’t. On how antis and haters will make sure everyone loses out.

  1. Honestly, I think as long as you aren’t wishing harm on the member you don’t like , that it’s better to let it out rather than for it to fester and eventually you act out that anger and disappointment in a much more negative way.
    I think complaining is healthy for us.
    Other than that, I have to agree with you. It’s gotten ridiculous how hell-bent some fans have gotten to start rumors or to vilify certain members to the point that they don’t even support the artist they are supposedly protecting or trying to put on a pedestal. It’s so much easier to vent, then ignore. That’s what I do, and it helps when you DON’T do it in a place where it’ll start a fanwar.
    Thanks again for another insightful article.

  2. I have no words left, really.
    Thou I’m biased and I’m 100% JYJ fan now, I could not bring my self to speak ill about YunHo and ChangMin.
    It was a very nice reading, thank you so much

  3. I don’t know what to think, me too, at first, I don’t want to say anything bad about HM, since I have a faith in them. But then, the song and those article had shown up. Somehow, it made me hate them a little, since JJ is my bias. But when I heard JYJ’s fan who said those nasty and harsh words about them, my heart clenched uneasily, coz I remembered how fond I am for them before this lawsuit.
    And I don’t agree with your opinion, I think if JJ decided to stay in SM, I wouldn’t love him as I love him now, part of my love for him came from my respect for his bravery.
    But I agree, the fandom had became a battlefield, before this lawsuit what we’re talking about is how great and perfect they are, now we tried to find the newest gossip and tried to make it to our advantage. And I ashamedly admitted, did that to…

  4. I dont know if its just me, but I had a different experience with choosing which side to support. My favorite was Yunho for like 2 years then became Changmin for 1 year, after the lawsuit broke out I saw myself siding more with JYJ.
    I cant even follow Homin activities anymore, the last thing I followed that was their’s was Heading to the Ground. I think the Yunho fandom had alot to do with it, if you visited the Yunho sites at soompi before(idk about now) it became very hostile there very quickly, it made me realize I cant stay with those kind of people. So I stopped visiting the site and thats when my bias started to change. No matter how much I try to see why HM stayed I cant, I just keep telling myself that we have different beliefs.

    • They play a major role to why I changed from tvxq 5 members suport to a JYJ full time fan too…
      HoMin fans really ruin HoMin for me…
      So that is why I wish JYJ fans do not ruin JYJ for other people

    • wow you sound like me. I was yunho biased up until august of last year. Realized I was slowly beginning to side more with JYJ.
      I was following homin’s activities up until about September of last year. After that I just couldn’t follow them. It wasn’t an anger issue or feeling like they did anything wrong that triggered it, I just…couldn’t do it anymore. It helped that Yunho’s fans are so hostile (like you already mentioned) and that some (supposedly) all five fans were jumping all over JYJ while praising homin to high heaven. I tend to side with the underdog in those kind of situations.

  5. First of all, I love your post. (Well, I love every posts here XD)

    I almost ended up a Homin-anti, then I realized, JYJ still loved them.
    I feel ashamed when a JYJ fan bashing Homin, while I mean bashing =/= criticized their actions, music, etc.

    But I do realize that it’s a thin line between bashing and criticizing, especially when people don’t use the same rulers to measure the writing.

    Actually, there is another psychological reason why I hope i-fandom can have a place for JYJ and Homin separately, just like in soompi now. One of my friend told me about this and made me stun by this little corner that I haven’t had any chance to consider about. Normally, if you don’t like an artist, you just ignore him/her…no more motivation for your hatred. But the more you got the info, the more you despise them because you already have pretty bad pre-perception to justify his/her action. So ignorance also can help kill hatred in some degree. I don’t mean you can’t defend your bias but just don’t plant your hatred-seed in your mind by becoming an anti of the others.

    I also wonder about spanish, singaporean, indonesian, malaysian and other fandom. Hope someone could clear us up. 🙂

  6. This article made me reflect a bit about myself. While I have tried my best to be civil to the “other camp”, I have definitely not stayed neutral in this fanwar. When I think more deeply about it, a big part of the dislike for the other two stems from the fact that I feel my bias has been attacked their fans.

    I’m happy that Korean fans are now fighting against those rumors.

  7. Wait.. this is not the point of this introspective article, but may I ask a question? According to the replies, Homin fans were also active in English sites? I knew about Korea and Japan, but don’t know about other countries. What about China and other English sites?

    K-sites should have passed information more to you guys, but until now they have not reacted to anties 1) not to ruin TVXQ name, 2) b/c they had a wishful thinking that people would not trust these unreasonable rumors. However, now many of us including me realize the anti’s strategy to “frame” the issue to their benefit has actually worked. Public do not care about facts but just believe what they see on the postings, which anties have posted everywhere with such a surprising passion.

    With the recent hellgate’s opening, K-cassies became more active and are now trying to communicate with foreign fans despite limited language skill and time. However, I am still stunned everyday by the energy of Hotel girls who are like huanting-ghost in public sites. >,.< Is the driving power of hatred stronger than power of love?

    In general, I think JYJ fans focus on refuting the rumors with factual proofs and on showing a clear support to JYJ(ex. bus campaign), rather than doing same anti-activities against Homin(JYJ fans criticize Homin among themselves, but do not go to the public sites to spread rumors systematically).

    • (I’m not speaking for everybody, even though my writing style sounds that way, I’m just giving my impression of my little corner of the fandom.)

      Part of the problem with talking about “English” fandom is that we are looking at the rest of the world aside from Korea, Japan and China. A fan from Thailand will have a different perspective as one from Dubai, as one from Peru, as one from Canada. Europe and the Americas are a big component, though, and have similar enough cultural background that I think classifying them together as “western” fans is reasonable.

      I actually don’t have any first hand knowledge of JYJ antis in English fandom, at least not as an organization. Most of the comments I’ve seen have been pushing JYJ supporters to become HoMin fans, too (AKTF! TVXQ5!) Or SME apologists (I have no polite comment on those).

      I think the antis don’t have strong foothold because the reasons that I’ve seen for hating JYJ — betrayal, just want money, ungrateful — don’t resonate with western fans. The idea of suing a company, an employer, for unfair treatment and questionable finances is more than acceptable. (Actually within my first month in the fandom (July 06) I was wondering where the hell were these kids’ parents (Changmin’s esp) that they would allow this kind of abuse!) I have yet to meet a known western fan that isn’t 100% behind JYJ’s actions, although the personal support for HoMin varies. Actually, I think most western fans are were initially confused by HoMin’s behaviour, but have reached different levels of understanding or acceptance.

      • Thank you Eliza. That’s very true! Me, as a western fan with the capitalist individualism values (or Human Rights & equal-ism values in Canada) hell don’t understand why HoMin stayed, if they are really being maltreated and are extremely under paid.

        I’m a Canadian Chinese, and I understand Confucianism. This’s Chinese’ moral and manner. However, understanding the theory & takings parts to apply to oneself; and blindly following the theory is different. I respect HoMin’s decision, but if SM is really a inhumane company (somehow I’ve no doubt about this), I think it’s really silly about the whole Confucian concept.

    • Thanks Eliza. That’s very helpful to know.
      About the difference between the western and eastern value system, if we take Korea as an example, Korea is a very fast-developed country. While its economy has grown to top 13 in 2000s from one of the world-poorest in 1952, our social atmosphere is still catching up. So the old Confucianism that focuses on loyalty and relationship clashes with the capitalist individualism in various areas, and I think this slave contract issue is one of them.

  8. I weren’t fan any fandom before until I know about what happen with JYJ, they got my respect with their talent and persionality, now i become JYJ fan,that why if they not leave SM i am not sure about I love them the same like right now ( even I really like their music) may be i just casual fan. But I agree with you, hate and bashing not help anything for your love idot and for yoursefl just become worse and worse, push other ppl away from you and your idoi. the best way if you can explain ppl around you what really happen it is really good,other just concentrate to support your love and skip all thing you don’t like. ( sorry for my poor english)

  9. I can’t help but react. This article made me think of my reaction to the articles from the past weeks. I have been a fan of this group since 2006 and have watched them go through all the trials and hard times especially trying to make it in Japan. I have frowned at their schedule and was often amazed that they were still standing at times. My heart swelled when they stood and performed at the Tokyo Dome and then my heart broke when the lawsuit came out. After reading all the articles offered and news that were translated I leaned towards JYJ due to the facts that they offered. I still kept up with the whole group as I was a big fan of Changmin (and had the wish to marry him..LOL) I watched the two groups form in front of my eyes and still kept the hope that things would get settled and the wish of JYJ to perform with Yunho and Changmin in the future would come true even if they were in different agencies…From what I read Shinwa members are from different agencies but they still perform together as a group. Then the announcement that Yunho and Changmin would perform at SMTOWN came and I was genuinely excited since we have not seen or heard them perform. Then I saw clips of their performances and I was happy for their solos and duets until I saw how they performed old TVXQ songs with members of Super Junior and Shinee and it hurt…a lot. But still continued to be updated with them. Fastforward to their interviews last week and the attack of SM artists on Junsu and I completely lost it. The words that were said were harsh and I couldn’t believe what I was reading. Now after the dust has settled as they say, I still keep the possibility that they will get together open since it is what JYJ has expressed in their interviews, but I can’t bear to hold an indifferent attitude to the activities of Yunho and example during the mirotic era I stayed up and installed various media players just to catch their performances and interviews live, but now although I still watch their performances I can live without seeing all of them especially since I wonder how it would be if JYJ can perform as freely as them. I can’t fully hate and forget the two members, I guess JYJ just takes priority…..I want to thank this website for publishing these articles, although I know most of the information shared I hope everybody gets to know the facts that you guys are sharing.

    • are you me. lol. really, just everything that you said resonated with my own experience after being in this fandom for nearly 4 years.

      but first of all, thank you OP for such deep, well-thought articles. i’ve just began reading theJYJfiles after stumbling across the link from someone in my tlist, and i’m glad i clicked the link because this site is filled with none of those nonsensical ramblings that are blinded by faith and so-called loyalty to one’s biases. good job for being a blog that tackles sensitive issue with tact and integrity, while also allowing spaces for questions and clarifications. 🙂

      and back to yoochunsarang. i felt almost the same way as you do about things that happened in regards to JYJ and HoMin separate activities. antis of JYJ bashed the fans for being allegedly “two-faced” about supporting all five – if they could support the 3, why not support the 2 in their comeback? in my opinion, there’s no such thing as being “two-faced” here. not liking them singing insults to their ex-members does not mean you wish them harm. personally, i was turned off by the blatant insults in the lyrics of ‘Why’ and the choreography, but i still feel proud that the 2 are topping charts and winning gayos in music programs. they do perform at the level befitting the name ‘TVXQ’, and as a fan of when they were five, i’m grateful for that.

      but the hurtful feelings do not goes away, not because of the name they chose to perform with, but the sentiment that echoes “we do not need the other 3 members to be TVXQ”. i may get flamed by actually writing this, but this was honestly what finally made me indifferent towards the 2. JYJ would have received the same treatment if they were to use the name and say they don’t need the other 2 to succeed. and that’s where the difference lies, i think, for most of us.

      i’m also an Asian and i came from a religious family that value filial piety and gratitude above everything else, and i grew up in educational and working system that requires loyalty and efforts towards your teachers and employees. i grow up thinking i would have to serve back what i was given – because it’s the only right thing to do and only just. therefore, i’m able to understand HoMin’s reasonings for staying. what JYJ is doing, for me, is an ideal that many of us would like to be able to do – to break free from the constraint of unsatisfactory lifestyle and from people that dictate every aspect of one’s life. how wonderful it is to have control of what you do, how you do things, when you do things and actually loving the things you do. personally that’s why i support the boys – because having dreams and sacrificing the relatively comfortable cocoon you’re in to achieve the dreams – are beautiful, beautiful thing. and we know people like things that are beautiful.

      i’m sorry if i’ve come across as blase over JYJ or HoMin or the issue at at whole at any point in my comment. i do feel very strongly for these five boys, and i wish that they will all succeed in whatever it is they decide to do. to yoochunsarang, sincere apologies for tying this long comment to yours. err.

  10. Ok, after finished reading this article I have to say thank you for your point of view and I do agree with you in some point, espcially this ‘A lot of times, we don’t judge on what have been said and done, but who have said and done it.’ I find it true though. People tend to believe oh what they’ve heard from various sources and if what they heard is related to the other, then they would believe it more.

    For HoMin, to be honest, I’ve waited for them to speak out and they finally did. But the words that came out from their mouth was just too much. I didn’t expect them to say all the nice lovely thing but I hope they wouldn’t use all the harsh words towards the others three. Wether or not they really think that way or they have to say it because of someone told them to. It’s just too much. And I once say that if all the statement from HoMin’s interview was really their thought then I’m going to say for the first time that I hate them, espcially, Changmin. But you know what, even I said that I bought their album anyway because I wish them to do well. I don’t like their songs that much but some are nice to listen though. This way I find myself not giving myslef to hate them for real. It’s just my anger because of their words. I know both JYJ and HoMin is in pain (who isn’t, right?) So, I’m telling myself all the time that this is gonna be okay, this going to be just fine one day. But for this time, I really need to MOVE ON and think in a positive way as much as I can.

    I know each party has their own reasons to stay or leave. But what I do have for them is my DOUBT. For JYJ, we know their reason, well mostly it’s because of their slave contract but who know if there’s more, right? For HoMin, I understand that there must be the reason for them to stay, but I always doubt that isn’t better for them to leave together at least they can fight togther. Until now I still have those doubt but I’m not going to bash or anything because I know myself well enough that I can’t hate them and but if there still more harsh interview, I don’t think that I can listen or watch their performances or even look at their pics with peace in my heart. So, live in peace and hope they all do well.

  11. Pingback: The Zero Sum Game that isn’t. On how antis and haters will make sure everyone loses out. « jyj3

  12. IM a JYJ supporter because all three of my top biased from DBSK are in it and I support what their doing. I kindda stopped reading HoMin news because I just couldn’t do it anymore. I have respected HoMin decision to stay but since those interviews and the rumors about the song and their biased fans just killed it for me. My love for HoMin dropped a little. What hurts the most is to see HoMin&JYJ Fans bash on each other.

  13. Hey… thank you for sharing…. 🙂

    Btw, can I ask you some question… what do you think of some posts that were written by: truetvxq….
    About the contract, the Creberau cosmetic company, etc2….
    what do you think about all of this? because it will be very helpful for me (and hopefully other cassies) to know about all this. Thank you… 🙂

  14. This is the transformation i experienced as a TVXQs fan

    Just when i found out about the lawsuit, I was sad and worried because at that time at couldnt even imagine a TVXQ separation… But I felt proud too and I thougth that it was only matter of time for HoMin to apply the lawsuit agains SM too…

    However time passed and It didnt happen… And It was ok , it was their decision and I decided that i would respect it … But my anger against SM increased more and more.
    Because of SM JYJ couldnt do any activities in Korea. And Because of SM HoMin did not any activities in Korea either… I felt so frustrated (altough , now, I believe that it was planned) … However JYJ was ok at the moment, they were in Japan and I was happy that AVEX was there to protect them … But THAT happened… AVEX dropped JYJ and blocked their activities in Japan too … I cant even describe how much sad, disapointed and mad I was … I felt like an stupid for believe in AVEX … *sigh* …

    Time passed and The blocking in Korea started … SM started to badmouth JYJ… Yunho´s father words… … ANd that finally happened … SM used HoMin to make JYJ look bad…

    Seriously before all these episodes (just a few months ago) I was ok with everything … I was sad … it´s true , but I felt that I could support JYJ and HoMin … I really felt that way … I was closely following JYJ and their words inspired me even more to be protective towards HoMin …
    But after all this… I felt so disapointed, I was really disapointed… I couldnt … I cant understand why HoMin is still in SM … I mean SM is STILL hurting JYJ … And SMs is badmouthing JYJ … Their stament JYJ= traitors who left TVXQ and abandoned Homin … V-V

    BUT >>> I dont hate HoMin … I just cant do that … Maybe I´m not supporting them right now (just because I´m not giving my money to SM >>) but I could never try to hurt them in any way… I´m just trying to give my full support and to JYJ … And if TVXQ comeback as 5 someday … I will give it my full support too

    I just cant understand these antis … Is that interesting to WASTE their time hating and hurting someone? … They need therapy.

    Thanks for the wonderful article…. NO MORE HATE PLEASE!

    Sorry for the poor english ><

      my bias was and is still yunho. and my second bias was and is still changmin.
      but i find myself leaning more to JYJ, i stopped following homin’s interviews because i was scared that i might hate homin and i was scared i might break my heart. that ‘bird analogy’ changmin made hurt me SO MUCH. and my hate for SMENT has reached 70 levels higher. I decided not to buy KYHD because i didn’t want to give a single penny to SMENT and instead i bought MUSIC ESSAY( just bcs the songs are awesome like that)

      As much as i am disappointed in yunho and changmin. I COULD NOT AND COULD NEVER hate them. and i definitely CAN NEVER BASH them.

  15. Thanks for sharing another perspective of thoughts and feelings on all these fanwars, antis etc.

    But the days for me as cluecless fans who believe in 5, who don’t want to choose side, who’s unsure what to believe is right or wrong, now definitely is over. I choose JYJ to support, because I have my reasons, be it they inspired me in their artistic ways or as human beings, period.

    HoMin choose a different path, which don’t reflects my nature and beliefs in life, so I choose not to support them. And after almost 2 years, it’s just tiring to STILL asked questions like “What if… this or that happened instead…” No, what happened … happened, they are grown up men, I judge them for what they released officially, they all are responsible for their actions and words, like every grown-ups.
    This has nothing to do with bashing nor hating them.
    And I wish many fans could just take it simple as that.

    Of course there are times when we see something is happening so unnatural and distorted, we’ll raised our disbelief or anger, we’ll voiced out our opinions or even critisized (like the recent controversies with Junsu’s tweet, HoMin’s song and interviews), but it’s natural, isn’t it?!

    We just need to know the boarder line. Voicing out your opinions or your disagrees have nothing to do with spreading lies and malicious rumors to degraded someone’s personality. You don’t wish this same happened to yourself, don’t you? Then why do this to another person? True this, what goes around, comes around.

  16. This is the most sane opinion I have heard on the topic. Agree with you with all my heart and mind. Thank you. This whole breakup thing is so draining.

  17. Thank you Starfield for another stunning article @ The JYJ Files^^

    Although I’m a new fan to this wonderful TVXQ5 trap (fell in ♥ just last year), I don’t know about other people, I just never hated JYJ or HoMin. Questions may have raised why HoMin didn’t leave with the other 3 (I keep asking this question everyday), but I just believe and have faith that they LOVE each other. 7+ years of hard work, all the tears they had together, those weren’t lies. Although HoMin’s answers @ the press con shocked and hurt me a lot (I still remember where Changmin answered “nothing”, when a reporter asked him do you have messages to JYJ…I could hear my heart broke @ that moment), I just can’t neglect all those memories. Of course, JYJ and HoMin didn’t neglect the memories that they spent together^^

    They all want their beloved members/brothers/friends to be good, happy & healthy. They still have love, so why is the fandom hating so much?! It’s non-sense to me. When I read those “non-understandable” comments, I just wanted to bang my head on the wall @o@ At first I was angry, but didn’t reply much. Becuz it’s hard to argue with people who have twisted believes. Now, I just don’t reply to any news post by the popular sites^^ (Actually, JYJ File is the only site that I post replies.) I get the news and leave! I didn’t join the fanwar and will never.

    I love the 5 boys♥ but I have to admit that I’m not watching a lot of HoMin’s stuff. I know the latest news & I bought their CD, but I don’t click on the links to watch the lives or look at the photos from magazines. The last thing I watched was HoMin’s 1st come back performance on Music Bank (I’ve to admit, KYHD is a powerful song & I like these “heavy” music, but I don’t like the lyrics >,<). I don't know why, maybe I'm just too afraid to do so? Or I don't want to admit/deny something. So coward, am I?

    I just want my 5 boys to be good, happy & healthy. No more tears, no more sadness. Be prepared for the tiny possibility to reunite^^ From Junsu, “If you continue to dream, if you never abandon your dream, it will come true in the end.”

    Well, in this whole incident, one side that I totally dislike (hate) is SM. They can’t be innocent at all!!

  18. well what i want to said first is… i don’t hate HoMin…

    May be since i watched JYJ performance at Tokyo Dome, without my acknowledgment my attention and support is 100% for them. To the point, ‘it’s okay if they won’t reunite later. I just less interested with what HoMin doing until the point i don’t care anymore (hope not offend anyone).

    Yes, i was hurt by what HoMin doing in their con. press, may be hurt beyond repair that i don’t know if later they reunite with JYJ whether i can still act like the “old time” toward them or not. Therefore i choose to let them go mmm bury them in my “good” memory about them. Because I know HoMin actually might have hard time, their decision on everything is really hard.. i try to understand it. And finally i know the value HoMin cherished is not same with me. So I just want to focus on JYJ. Spread their love^_^

    And to see many “hypocrite OT5” well~ i just dumbfound.. and it’s seriously hard for genuine OT5…I do respect them.. sometimes i even pitying them, coz they really just want support five no matter what happen. And sometimes as JYJ fans i do feel guilty because i thought them as denial, naive and delusional fan. I am so sorry.

    But what i can’t stand is where they already putting down one side to defend the other side. I always see this pattern. Especially for putting down JYJ and thought HM is innocent because they are in SME. Please review what u already said and see clearly how u “accidentally” blame JYJ about what they are doing and sometime “accidentally” make HoMin look like coward and puppet. I don’t even joking to said, when u agree with JYJ u can’t help to disappointed with HM. And when u agree with HM means you will blame it on JYJ.

    I don’t even don’t know how a genuine fans for 5 can still keep sane to support both group. Didn’t u tired to understand both side?? If u love JYJ didn’t u hurt by HM statement?? And if u love HM didn’t u blame JYJ?? have ur heart broken into two?? may be i choose become JYJ fan because it’s less headache =_=;; i don’t have to defend two side… focus on one side without hate another side is definitely healthier…

  19. This was very interesting and informative. I had no idea about how the antis had spread so far in the fandom! 😦

    I still consider myself an OT5 fan, because that is how I fell in love with DBSK 3 years ago. Right now, my “OT5” is one that existed in the past and maybe, one day, will reunite in the future if that’s what the 5 of them want. (I hope it is, but I know I can’t count on it.) My OT5 of the past gave me joy and the gifts of their talents and personalities and brotherhood that I will always be deeply grateful to all 5 of them for that.

    Right now for me, it’s a little hard to wholeheartedly support both JYJ and HoMin the way I supported DBSK. I thought when HoMin would return to music activities, I would be more enthusiastic than I am. I don’t know whether it’s because the hatred in the fandom wore me down, or because of the KYHD image (I just don’t like it much), or because when I watch the interviews, HoMin still seem rather tense… I don’t know, honestly. Moments from their comeback have given me smiles. But not as many smiles as JYJ’s appearances have. It’s just the truth.

    How I support all 5 right now is buying the albums, not badmouthing anyone, and remembering that I don’t know what any of them are going through. I believe HoMin are going through their own difficulties, privately and in ways SM will never let us see, just as JYJ is having a hard time. I miss my OT5 of the past, but currently, I am still impressed with these 5 young men who have made difficult choices and have the strength to face their uncertain futures. All I want for them is the success, happiness, and good health they deserve. They’ve all worked hard for it.

    • You said all whatever i want to say.
      Just years back whenever i’m thinking about TVXQ and cassiopeia, they gave me some sort like energy and inspiration to go on…to look further….to evolve…not to give up…and so on…but that spirit now only remains with JYJ. They are kind of new version of TVXQ5 and i want to be with that kind of people as my mentor. Now I am proudly look up to JYJ as person to be admired the most and I also love their fans(me?!!) very much…we all like walking side by side and turning bad situation into our opportunity to reach further…So I stop following HOMIN….Why should i follow negative people as my inspiration? I left behind all related matters about HOMIN so that I can move on, no heartache, no regret, no bashing….if not my heart would bleed to death.

  20. thank you so much for the article, starfield. i love this site cause it helps me to see things in different way, and in a good way also.
    i’m one of you guys who can’t stand of antis. i believe there are many other ways you can do to breach out your energy instead of bashing people. i admire jyj fans in korea who do a lot of things such as bus campaign and internet tv station to support jyj, and i personally think that these steps just like a punch in the face for those antis, cause they show them how positive jyj’s fans, instead of counterattack them with same act like antis do.
    i myself, had chosen to only support jyj since long time ago.
    when jyj filed legal action against that stupid company in 2009 and not followed by homin, i still believed that maybe it’s one of their way. some took action by law, some from the inside. when they looked awkward in best hits show in japan, i was one of those who thought that they were like that cause of their company. especially when a host of one of tv program in japan said that they’re still good friends. i still watched fancams of smtown, buzzing over their performances, etc, etc… and then sm (god, i hate mentioning this name) announced that tvxq will come back with only homin, along with homin’s signed statement that they could not wait for jyj anymore. it just hit me. duo tvxq is bs idea. keeping tvxq name alive ? bs. i’m not in love with the name. i fell for them not cause they’re some kind of legendary name in k-pop. it’s their skills, their harmony, their bond, their distinguished capability that no other group has what’s got me to the fandom. i felt betrayed. some fans kept saying that homin just could not go against sm’s wish cause they’re still under sm, their signed seemed to be forged, but i’m already convinced that it’s not. thinking about this situation just reminded me of some smtown fancams that showed yunho kissing tvxq balloon. then old interviews about yunho saying that no one could forced him to do anything that he doesn’t want to. i just conclude that this is what he wants, he’s not forced to perform under tvxq name. so i started to ignore any yunho’s news. i didn’t know what to feel about changmin, but i still paid bit attention to him. their recent interview that showed changmin’s anger that stop me.
    i’m sorry but i chose to side with jyj. i don’t feel anything to homin anymore. it’s not that i hate them, i just feel nothing. like they’re just other artist in k-pop that i don’t need to pay attention to. that’s why i don’t wanna bash or spread my hatred. jj is my bias, but i just can’t said “oh i still love homin cause jj still love them.” i can’t. but i don’t wanna be antis either. so i guess i just follow korean fans who show their love an support to jyj to breach out my energy. they’re the best example of what good fans can be, and i think every fans should do the same.

    • right..right…i agree with you..i did not feel in love with the name TVXQ..i fell in love with the 5 boys thus my unconditional support for them too…they can be called any other name for that matter i wouldn’t really care as long as the 5 of them are together..

      both groups are hurting that’s for sure…seeing the fandom they care for so much being divided like this must have hurt more..

      no more what ifs please…what happened, happened because they were meant to happen..however hurtful these things were and are..

      what more could the antis want?..HOMIN goes around promoting their album freely, giving presscons easily, doing events peacefully with roads smoothly paved by SM when JYJ’s [whom they earnestly support before the lawsuit brouhaha] can’t even get a stage in korea…?..the rest of the world is acknowledging JYJ, yet korean TV stations won’t even give them a call?..pathetic really..

      no more bashings…support whom you want…no more bashings please…why spend so much time, energy, effort and emotions hating HOMIN or JYJ?…i simply cannot for the life of me understand why people hate people who stands up for what they believe is right…

      and oh! sorry for pinning this to your comment..

  21. First of all, thank you for writing this. Since there’s a lot of thoughtful comments here (interesting how some people pointed out the clash that may occur between individualistic capitalism and Confucianism), I hope to make mine more short and sweet :).

    I think it’s great how you pointed out the different ways of reading this situation and how gray it can be – particularly how “it’s wrong … to think that it’s impossible for two good persons to have made opposite choices”. While I am not certain I agree with this on a logical level, I feel I understand this on an empathetic and emotional level and that is sufficient reason to not bash/hate the ‘other side’. Aside from this, it’s also nice to have an article detailing other fandom’s reactions (such as Chinese and Japanese).

    Finally, thank you for creating this site… it is stimulating to read well thought out writing and comments.

  22. confession time?
    I love the harmony when they are together as 5, especially when they are THSK.
    Regarding individual voices, JJ’s got to me first, then YC, then JS, then Min, then Ho.
    Regarding individual personalities, JJ again, then YC, then JS, then Min, then Ho.
    you can see the pattern…since I consider myself as a casual fan (though visiting fansites everyday qualify me as a diehard fan!), I think I can go where the music flows.
    According to the pattern, you can easily see where it takes me ^^

    Regarding their relationships, during the dome, it’s like nothing can break them. During that time, however, you could see during cons, interviews, activities, the trios had shown various signs of deep thought. JJ was always caught standing mindlessly somewhere on the stage, but YJ couple fans always shot down with various explainations! (there’s another matter tho).

    When the lawsuit news broke out with 3 suing, 2 remaining, I thought maybe they tried a nice tactic here. The two stayed to lessen the damage to the company and lessn worrys to other idols in their ‘family’. However, the father’s words (I heard about that even before the book, there was a fan account!), I started to think so this was the real deal. Nov 2009, there was an ultimatum from the two to the trio to come back where fans said it was SM forging it (well, recently, from the book we knew that the ultimatum was real). Early 2010, they performed together in Japan and we could clearly see the awkwardness and Min’s anger. Well, YH also kept saying that he respected his father and he believed his father and that his father was his role model in various interviews, that’s when I thought I could no longer hope for the reunion anytime soon.

    So a year went by, finally they had a chance to speak about this issue from their own mouths as fans always asked. The message was harsh and belittering the trio, I couldn’t imagine how the trio took it hearing those words. Again, HM’s words did nothing to me, I was over it a year ago. So I am indifferent to them.

    I could say that I support JYJ not only bcos of their music and their passion for music and life, their motives for suing are also in the same wavelength of my believes in righteousness and morality. —> You could say that I am greedy for freedom, equality, and respect for my right.

  23. Thanks Starfield for the article. 🙂

    This para resonated with me:

    “When you have faith in someone- and I don’t call it a blind faith unless you are always going against your rational thinking while defending this person – it’s natural and easy for you to believe that whatever conscious decision he makes, he has a genuine motive and doesn’t mean to hurt anyone, even when he knows it’s inevitable that people will be hurt by his decision.”

    From the very start this has been the definition of my Faith in my boys; it’s nice to see someone else articulating it…I shall always come back to this para whenever the vitriol in this fandom is too much to bear.

  24. I really like how this article hit the spot completely to how a lot of us are feeling in addition to the comments above. The way I see it, true fans will have to support someone either jyj or homin in times like these its impossible to support all five equally. But these fans are true because although they support one side they cannot bring themselves to hurt the opposing.
    I totally adore DBSK with biases being junsu and homin therefore I know how hard it is for some that are out there to make this kind of decision when your biases are split. In the end I without really knowing, became more and more sided towards jyj and having to help defend them against antis and homin biases. With the DBSK fandom, everyone was one big family, seeing these people attack the ones we love tore me to pieces. Junsus tweet was another excuse for homin biases to further attack jyj in forums, fanclubs and all sorts of dbsk websites big or small. I couldnt handle anymore nasty comments towards jyj but never blamed homin. I felt bad for homin too as jyj biases pretty much killed them with their endless harsh words of judgement and hearing so many expressions of them suffering in silence. I wish they spoke up but when they did I converted immeadiately to JYJ, their words especially changmins broke my heart and made me cry. I was thinking and telling myself they didnt mean it but the possibilty that maybe they did ended my support for them. I cant bring myself to hate them but I cant bring myself to see them on broadcasts or listen to their songs either.
    I hope these biases and antis dont add anymore pain to the boys knowing how much each and everyone is suffering right now, I really liked this article it really cleared up most of my feelings about the whole thing, thankyou heaps.

  25. I have made my mind for some time on the issue and it seems to coherent with this piece of yours.
    I think that it’s could be as simple as everyone for themselves.
    Even if I’ve become a little more biased from all the information I’ve been reading,
    I think they have made the best choice for themselves and this does not make
    any of them less human or devil. But yes this really is a zero-sum game
    and it is hard to feel the same to the party I am more disagree with which is HM.

    I can’t really seem to make any point here but it is very good to have read this piece.
    Thank you author and JYJ file.

  26. Wow! I’ve finally found someone that shares the same thoughts as me. I was surprised when I read the title since it’s about something I’ve learnt at school. Thanks for sharing this. I’ve really enjoyed reading it.

    Unfortunately, it seems it’s ingrained in the human way of thought, trying to find a culprit for each and every single matter that appears before them.

    I just honestly hope this can be solved one day, for the boys’ sakes more than anyone else’s since, to me, the suffering is mutual and extremely painful to both parties.

  27. This article provides a really good insight on the fandom wars going on in the DBSK fandom community. We used to swell with pride when fans from other fandoms would drop their jaws when they saw how united we were and how much support we’ve given the boys in the past few years, but now people are beginning to think it strange that we’re willing to go through this whole ordeal with the boys. It’s quite saddening…this mighty fandom is beginning to fall apart internally, and it might be unrepairable.

    I will risk sounding like a wannabe-saint, but I truly do support all five of them, even though my bias has been and will always be Junsu. It’s hard for me to explain, but I feel like right now I can’t turn my back on any of them, since they are all probably going through a lot more than we are and feel all that pressure not only from the press, but even from the fans to speak up. Yes, I did feel uneasy when I read HoMin’s words at the press conference, but when I remembered Yunho’s friend talking about how Yunho fell into depression for about a year, how some “fans” threw rocks at HoMin’s houses and called them traitors, I couldn’t help but not get angry at them.

    No one wants to suffer, and it’s much easier for fans to support a side than going through the pain of being torn between both sides, so I think their action is justifiable. However, I don’t like the constant blame-game. Ever since the beginning, I felt proud of all FIVE of them, JCS for standing up for what they believe in and HM for standing up for what THEY believe in, regardless of the consequences. I think it takes a lot more courage to follow through with a decision and don’t regret even if it may seem like the wrong thing to do than to make a decision just because other people said it is the right thing to do.

    Right now, I just sincerely hope that things will be settled soon so that the load on the boys’ bodies and hearts could be lessened. Jaejoong, Yunho, Yoochun, Junsu, Changmin Hwaiting!

  28. Guys! lets keep an open mind. I’m not a kcassie just a normal fan living in the Philippines but I hope we don’t miss the point and we should not make assumptions or judgements subjectively. Some of us especially Internationals, look the whole thing narrowly and just one sided. I don’t know what to believe. I do love the 5 of them and it is true that its hard to be neutral and support these 5 people equally (which is very ideal). I end up hating both sides and then gaining trust again. Oh! its tiring. I also don’t want to make a claim, take a side or make judgments. Honestly, I wasn’t able to witness the start of this whole thing, I don’t even trust some news surrounding on the net because I find it biased and not credible. Aren’t we fans and together with the antis filters the news ? and some of us were looking this whole thing subjectively. Admit the fact we all have our personal biases and we let our emotions ruled over our judgement and views. To be honest after this whole crazy thing and following the drama endlessly to the point that I didn’t even sleep for 2 days just to get things right, I feel numb. I really don’t feel taking sides because i want to look this whole thing in a wide perspective and be open for all the possibilities. I really feel numb and i lost the joy when i hear their songs. Whatever, the truth will unfold itself. I hope this would happen soon.

  29. well…. if i may….this “chaotic drama” is doing no good at all….at the end of the day the one who suffers is the fandom itself….cassiopeia….since the lawsuit began, fans has been very “sensitive” and “reactive” to every single news about jyj and homin….for someone like me who depends solely to translated-to-english news about the boys thru the internet, (since i’m from the philippines) every post, news, article, etc., matters a lot to me….for this is the only way i can get hold of the boys….it came to a point wherein reading articles in the web has been very tiring and exhausting because of the “taking sides situation” and the “jyj fans vs. homin fans fanwar”….i asked myself, “where is the fanclub that brings pride and honor to it’s members?”, “where is the fanclub that brings love and happiness to dong bang shin ki?” and “where is the fanclub that once promises to protect tvxq and cassiopeia itself?”….i’m sorry to say this but it seems that, that fanclub is starting to fall apart….and it hurts to see the situation fall out of hand….maybe it’s time for every cassiopeia to reflect….you and i may not be a part of the “bashing fans” but are we going to just sit back and watch the situation worsen?….honestly, i don’t have any idea on how to help to patch things up to bring back the “real” cassiopeia…. the situation might got out of control, but it’s never too late to start again….TOGETHER WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL….ALWAYS KEEP THE FAITH….

  30. Pingback: An article about Antis | DBSKALWAYS

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